The Internet Classics Archive . The wise man, as the proverb says, is late for. And are we late for a feast? Yes, and a delightful feast; for Gorgias has just been. It is not my fault, Callicles; our friend Chaerephon. Agora. Never mind, Socrates; the misfortune of which. I have been the cause I will also repair; for Gorgias is a friend of mine. I will make him give the exhibition again either now, or, if you prefer. FREE SPEECH IN PLATO’S GORGIAS2 As this new reading of Plato’s Gorgias shows, four distinct positions with regard to freedom of. What is the matter, Chaerephon- does Socrates want to. Gorgias? Yes, that was our intention in. Come into my house, then; for Gorgias is staying with. Very good, Callicles; but will he answer our questions? There is nothing like asking him, Socrates; and indeed. I mean such a question as would elicit from him, if. I understand, and will ask him: Tell me, Gorgias. Callicles right in saying that you undertake to answer any. Quite right, Chaerephon: I was saying as much only. I may add, that many years have elapsed since any one has. Then you must be very ready, Gorgias. Of that, Chaerephon, you can make. Yes, indeed, and if you like, Chaerephon, you may. I think that Gorgias, who has been talking a. And do you, Polus, think that you can answer better. Plato in Twelve Volumes. Purchase a copy of this text (not necessarily the same edition). Commentary on Plato: Gorgias, 462e; Gonzalez Lodge, Commentary on Plato: Gorgias. Gorgias? What does that matter if I answer well enough for. Not at all: -and you shall answer if you. My question is this: If Gorgias had the skill of. Herodicus, what ought we to call him? Ought he not to have. Then we should be right in calling him a. And if he had the skill of Aristophon the son of. Aglaophon, or of his brother Polygnotus, what ought we to call. But now what shall we call him- what is the art in. O Chaerephon, there are many arts among mankind which.
And our friend Gorgias is. Polus has been taught how to make a capital speech. Gorgias; but he is not fulfilling the promise which he made to. Chaerephon. What do you mean, Socrates? I mean that he has not exactly answered the question. Then why not ask him yourself? But I would much rather ask you, if you are disposed. I see, from the few words which Polus has uttered, that. What makes you say so, Socrates? Because, Polus, when Chaerephon asked you what was. Gorgias knows, you praised it as if you were answering some. Why, did I not say that it was the noblest of. Yes, indeed, but that was no answer to the question. Gorgias. And I would still beg you. Chaerephon when he asked you at first. Gorgias: Or rather. Gorgias, let me turn to you, and ask the same question what are we to call. Rhetoric, Socrates, is my art. Then I am to call you a rhetorician? Yes, Socrates, and a good one too, if you would call. Homeric language, . I should wish to do so. And are we to say that you are able to make other men. Yes, that is exactly what I profess to make them, not. Athens, but in all places. And will you continue to ask and answer questions. Gorgias, as we are at present doing and reserve for another occasion the. Polus was attempting? Will you keep your promise. Some answers, Socrates, are of necessity longer; but. I will do my best to make them as short as possible; for a part of my profession. I can be as short as any one. That is what is wanted, Gorgias; exhibit the shorter. Well, I will; and you will certainly say, that you. Very good then; as you profess to be a rhetorician. I might ask with what is weaving concerned, and you would reply (would. And music is concerned with the composition of. By Here, Gorgias, I admire the surpassing brevity of. Yes, Socrates, I do think myself good at. I am glad to hear it; answer me in like manner about. What sort of discourse, Gorgias?- such discourse as. Then rhetoric does not treat of all kinds of. And yet rhetoric makes men able to. And to understand that about which they. But does not the art of medicine, which we were just. Then medicine also treats of discourse? Of discourse concerning diseases? And does not gymnastic also treat of discourse concerning. And the same, Gorgias, is true of the other arts: -all. Then why, if you call rhetoric the art which treats. Because, Socrates, the knowledge of the other arts. And therefore I am justified in saying. I am not sure whether I entirely understand you, but. I dare say I shall soon know better; please to answer me a question: -you. As to the arts generally, they are for the most part. I suppose you would say that they do not come within the province. You perfectly conceive my meaning. Socrates. But there are other arts which work wholly through. I take your meaning to. And yet I do not believe that you really mean to call. You are quite right, Socrates, in your apprehension. Well, then, let me now have the rest of my answer: -seeing. Suppose that a person asks me. I was mentioning just now; he might say, . And then. he would proceed to ask: . And if he asked. again: . And if he further said. You would be quite right, Socrates. And now let us have from you, Gorgias, the truth about. To what class of. To the greatest, Socrates, and the best of human. That again, Gorgias is ambiguous; I am still in the. I dare say that. you have heard men singing at feasts the old drinking song, in which the. Yes, I know the song; but what is your. I mean to say, that the producers of those things which. Do you mean. that your art produces the greatest good? What greater good can men have, Socrates?? And we shall rejoin: Yes; but our friend. Gorgias contends that his art produces a greater good than yours. And then. he will be sure to go on and ask, ? That good, Socrates, which is truly the greatest, being. And what would you consider this to. What is there greater than the word which persuades. Now I think, Gorgias, that you have very accurately. I am not mistaken, that rhetoric is the artificer of persuasion. No: the definition seems to me very fair, Socrates. Then hear me, Gorgias, for I am quite sure that if. I am such a one, and I should say the same of. What is coming, Socrates? I will tell you: I am very well aware that do not know. I have a suspicion about both the one and the other. And I am going to. But why, if I have a suspicion, do I ask instead of telling you? And I would have you observe. I am right in asking this further question: If I asked, . And the reason for asking this second question would. But if there had been no one but Zeuxis who painted. Now I was it to know about rhetoric in the same way; -is. I mean to say- Does he who teaches anything persuade men of. He persuades, Socrates,- there can be no mistake about. Again, if we take the arts of which we were just now. And therefore persuade us of them? Then arithmetic as well as rhetoric is an artificer. And if any one asks us what sort of persuasion, and. Then rhetoric is not the only artificer of. Seeing, then, that not only rhetoric works by persuasion. Of what persuasion is rhetoric the. Then, if you approve the question, Gorgias, what is. I answer, Socrates, that rhetoric is the art of persuasion. I was just now saying, and about. And that, Gorgias, was what I was suspecting to be. I would not have you wonder if by- and- by I am found repeating. I ask not in order to confute you, but. I was saying that the argument may proceed consecutively, and that we. I would have you develop your own views in your own way. I think that you are quite right. Socrates. Then let me raise another question; there is such a. In my judgment, Socrates, they are not the. And your judgment is right, as you may ascertain in. If a person were to say to you, . Well, but is there a false knowledge as well as a. No, indeed; and this again proves that knowledge and. And yet those who have learned as well as those who. Shall we then assume two sorts of persuasion,- one which. And which sort of persuasion does rhetoric create in. Clearly, Socrates, that which only gives. Then rhetoric, as would appear, is the artificer of. And the rhetorician does not instruct the courts of. Come, then, and let us see what we really mean about. I do not know what my own meaning is as yet. When the assembly. For at every election. Gorgias? Since you. I cannot do better. And here let me assure you. I have your interest in view as well as my own. For likely enough. I see some, and a good many too, who have this wish. And therefore when you are. I would have you imagine that you are interrogated. I like your way of leading us on, Socrates, and I will. You must have. heard, I think, that the docks and the walls of the Athenians and the plan. Themistocles, and partly of Pericles, and not at the suggestion of the. Such is the tradition, Gorgias, about Themistocles. I myself heard the speech of Pericles when he advised us about the. And you will observe, Socrates, that when a decision. I had that in my admiring mind, Gorgias, when I asked. I look. at the matter in this way, to be a marvel of greatness. A marvel, indeed, Socrates, if you only knew how rhetoric. Let me offer. you a striking example of this. On several occasions I have been with my. Herodicus or some other physician to see one of his patients, who. I have persuaded him to do for me what he would not. And I say that if a rhetorician. Ecclesia. or any other assembly as to which of them should be elected state- physician. Such is the nature and power of the art of rhetoric And yet, Socrates. Suppose a man to have been trained in the palestra. For they taught their art for a good. But not on this account are. I should. rather say that those who make a bad use of the art are to blame. And the. same argument holds good of rhetoric; for the rhetorician can speak against. And if after having become a rhetorician. For he was intended. You, Gorgias, like myself, have had great experience. I think, that they do not. And sometimes. they will go on abusing one another until the company at last are quite. And I am afraid to point this out to you, lest you should think. I have some animosity against you, and that I speak, not for the sake. Now if you are one. I should like to cross- examine you, but if not I will let you. I am one of those who are very. I say anything which is not true, and very willing. I for I hold that this is the greater gain of the. For I imagine that there is no evil which a man can.
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